Sirius/Remus rant
Feb. 16th, 2005 06:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
kowaiyoukaiI just posted this on this thread at FAP, and I thought, what the heck, to my lj it is. ^_^*
You know, this is such a tetchy subject. Seriously, it is. I voted for them to be together, of course, b/c that's the way I interpret the canon.
There's a lot of evidence in canon that they're more than friends. The way they finish each other's sentences, they give Harry a joint gift, they live together, Sirius waits until Remus comes back in the room to continue speaking, Remus stares at Sirius for forty lines, etc. I could list the evidence all day.
Saying that, I must also point out that I'm a Harry/Draco shipper. We have maybe three pieces of evidence throughout canon. Maybe. Yet H/D is my OTP, and I believe in it wholeheartedly.
So what it comes down to is every persons interpretation of the text. Everyone visualizes the scenes just slightly different from each other. Maybe Sirius and Remus are sitting closer together in my head than they are in yours. That doesn't mean either of us is reading it wrong, it just means we're interpreting it differently.
And, as many people have said, in the end it comes down to how you view the actions of others. If a person is used to seeing 35-year-old men acting the way Sirius and Remus do towards each other, then they're not going to assume it's anything more than friendship. Unless they're used to these actions from seeing them in homosexual couples, in which case they'll probably assume they're romantically involved.
I don't think there's anything wrong with either viewpoint. I do think it's a waste of time to be constantly arguing about it, however. It's good to get other people's opinions, if only to let yourself hear the other side of the argument.
Also, I think it's wise to point out how Sirius and Remus would act, if they were a couple. They grew up during a time when homosexuality was frowned upon. They would have had to hide their relationship to everyone except their closest friends. Then, just when they're able to get out of Hogwarts, and possibly move in together, the Voldemort Chronicles begin.
After that, both were unable to trust each other b/c they didn't know who was under the Imperius, i.e. who was spying for Voldemort. Whether they were friends or lovers, this had to have been a stressful time.
Sirius gets thrown into Azkaban, presumably without ever making things right between him and Remus. Remus believes that Sirius is guilty for twelve years, and probably goes through serious depression. Whatever the nature of their relationship, it's obvious they were connected strongly in some way. Remus had to have taken this news of Sirius' betrayal hard.
So, when Remus learns that Sirius is innocent, and he first sees him again in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, I don't think he's thinking clearly. His actions are a little too... on edge, perhaps? And then, before Remus and Sirius have any time alone, Sirius is on the run again.
They spend a year or so apart. Finally, Dumbledore tells Sirius to 'lie low at Lupin's.' This would have been the first time since before Sirius was imprisoned that they would have a chance to be alone. Whether to rekindle their relationship or a friendship is open to interpretation.
But I don't think they would have been quite comfortable around each yet, even by OotP. I mean, Sirius' good memories were taken away from him in Azkaban. So, even if Sirius and Remus were a couple, would Sirius have remembered? How would Remus have acted, if Sirius didn't remember? Maybe by staring at him for long periods of time, and trying to just be patient and wait for the memories to return? Possibly.
And I think Remus' reaction to the veil scene is that of a lover's. Remus has always been more self-contained than any other character. I think we're going to see a side of him we've never seen before in HBP.
I don't think Sirius and Remus would have been acting as lovers in the open, anyway. Most gay couples don't. It makes everyone uncomfortable, and they'd rather not put themselves through that sort of abuse. Besides that, Sirius and Remus had Harry and the Order to think about. They probably assumed they'd have time to patch things up later. *sniffle*
Also, from an author's perspective, most authors don't write outright slash. It's very rare. Even if JKR wanted to include homosexual characters, which is quite possible, she would have made it subtext only. There is no way she would have ever said anything to prove it one way or the other. It would have been too much of a hassle. The lawsuits would have started pouring in. People are close-minded about this sort of thing.
And if you're asking yourself why JKR would have wanted to include homosexual characters, the answer is relatively simple. Voldemort is seen as Hitler. The Malfoys are the essence of the Aryan race- blonde hair, light-colored eyes, aristocratic. Mudbloods, muggles, half-bloods- all are terms that speak of people with 'bad blood', which was anyone Jewish or non-Aryan, in Hitler's mind. A lesser known fact is that Hitler also persecuted homosexuals. He found them to be right down there at the bottom of the barrel along with Jews and others races.
So, if JKR was writing this as a parallel, which it appears to me she is, then what types of people would the heroes be? Mudbloods, muggles, and half-bloods? Sure. Anyone not aristocratic and Aryan? Yes. Homosexuals? Makes sense. But you can't put an openly gay couple in a 'children's book', can you? So what does she do? She gives Harry a godfather who left his pureblood family, for unknown reasons, at age 16.
What age is sixteen? The age when a lot of guys start becoming sexually active? Correct. Is it possible Sirius was thrown out of the Black family because he was homosexual, and had come out to his family hoping for acceptance? Could be.
So Sirius is an ambiguous character, an ex-convict, who lives with a werewolf in Grimmauld Place. What better way to defile his relative's wishes for his pureblooded home than to use it as headquarters for the Order? Failing that, he could always invite his male lover there to stay with him. Sirius is just like that- wanting revenge, and being evil about getting it.
Werewolves are dark creatures, cast-offs of society. They would certainly be inappropriate in Hitler's world view. Think of the other members of the Order- Tonks (with her ever-changing hair color), Kingsley (who's black), and Moody (who's deformed). They also have poor pure-blooded people, b/c being poor was bad, and thieves. Obviously, the Order is a mis-matched collection of heroes. All of whom happen to share characteristics that Hitler hated.
Coincidence?
If you think so, then I don't know what else to say. If, however, you think there's an odd reoccurring theme here, like I myself do, then let me point out the following: if JKR has represented literally every other type of person that Hitler, and hence Voldemort, hates in the Order, why would she not put in a gay couple? Or, even better, a gay couple who's somehow related to the main hero of the story? This would gain our sympathy and respect for them, even if she never revealed what their sexual orientations were.
Also, why else would Voldemort target Sirius Black? He's a pureblood. He's aristocracy. He's the last survivor of an old bloodline, which seems to mean something to him. Would Voldemort be okay with his death? There's only so many pureblooded families to go around, you know. Eventually, you run out of them.
If Sirius was gay, then it makes more sense why he was ostracized to begin with, and why Voldemort targets him. True, he's a big target anyway b/c Harry cares for him. But, did he have to die? What's the difference between killing off the last survivor of the Blacks and a homosexual? Plenty, in Voldemort's mind.
Hopefully, this makes some sort of sense. I've thought about this a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that Sirius and Remus act like two people who were once in love, and have not yet reached the same level of intimacy they once shared. Whether due to Sirius' loss of memory, or to Remus' doubts and worries about re-starting a relationship, one can only guess.
Feel free to respond. If you have any thoughtful comments, please leave them. I'd love to have an intelligent discussion about this, not just a shouting match.
It does come down to personal preference with any SHIP, slashy or otherwise. I have a great friend who just can't see Ron/Hermione, although to me it's as clear as day.
It's all in interpretation of both text and subtext, people.
^.~*
You know, this is such a tetchy subject. Seriously, it is. I voted for them to be together, of course, b/c that's the way I interpret the canon.
There's a lot of evidence in canon that they're more than friends. The way they finish each other's sentences, they give Harry a joint gift, they live together, Sirius waits until Remus comes back in the room to continue speaking, Remus stares at Sirius for forty lines, etc. I could list the evidence all day.
Saying that, I must also point out that I'm a Harry/Draco shipper. We have maybe three pieces of evidence throughout canon. Maybe. Yet H/D is my OTP, and I believe in it wholeheartedly.
So what it comes down to is every persons interpretation of the text. Everyone visualizes the scenes just slightly different from each other. Maybe Sirius and Remus are sitting closer together in my head than they are in yours. That doesn't mean either of us is reading it wrong, it just means we're interpreting it differently.
And, as many people have said, in the end it comes down to how you view the actions of others. If a person is used to seeing 35-year-old men acting the way Sirius and Remus do towards each other, then they're not going to assume it's anything more than friendship. Unless they're used to these actions from seeing them in homosexual couples, in which case they'll probably assume they're romantically involved.
I don't think there's anything wrong with either viewpoint. I do think it's a waste of time to be constantly arguing about it, however. It's good to get other people's opinions, if only to let yourself hear the other side of the argument.
Also, I think it's wise to point out how Sirius and Remus would act, if they were a couple. They grew up during a time when homosexuality was frowned upon. They would have had to hide their relationship to everyone except their closest friends. Then, just when they're able to get out of Hogwarts, and possibly move in together, the Voldemort Chronicles begin.
After that, both were unable to trust each other b/c they didn't know who was under the Imperius, i.e. who was spying for Voldemort. Whether they were friends or lovers, this had to have been a stressful time.
Sirius gets thrown into Azkaban, presumably without ever making things right between him and Remus. Remus believes that Sirius is guilty for twelve years, and probably goes through serious depression. Whatever the nature of their relationship, it's obvious they were connected strongly in some way. Remus had to have taken this news of Sirius' betrayal hard.
So, when Remus learns that Sirius is innocent, and he first sees him again in the Shrieking Shack in PoA, I don't think he's thinking clearly. His actions are a little too... on edge, perhaps? And then, before Remus and Sirius have any time alone, Sirius is on the run again.
They spend a year or so apart. Finally, Dumbledore tells Sirius to 'lie low at Lupin's.' This would have been the first time since before Sirius was imprisoned that they would have a chance to be alone. Whether to rekindle their relationship or a friendship is open to interpretation.
But I don't think they would have been quite comfortable around each yet, even by OotP. I mean, Sirius' good memories were taken away from him in Azkaban. So, even if Sirius and Remus were a couple, would Sirius have remembered? How would Remus have acted, if Sirius didn't remember? Maybe by staring at him for long periods of time, and trying to just be patient and wait for the memories to return? Possibly.
And I think Remus' reaction to the veil scene is that of a lover's. Remus has always been more self-contained than any other character. I think we're going to see a side of him we've never seen before in HBP.
I don't think Sirius and Remus would have been acting as lovers in the open, anyway. Most gay couples don't. It makes everyone uncomfortable, and they'd rather not put themselves through that sort of abuse. Besides that, Sirius and Remus had Harry and the Order to think about. They probably assumed they'd have time to patch things up later. *sniffle*
Also, from an author's perspective, most authors don't write outright slash. It's very rare. Even if JKR wanted to include homosexual characters, which is quite possible, she would have made it subtext only. There is no way she would have ever said anything to prove it one way or the other. It would have been too much of a hassle. The lawsuits would have started pouring in. People are close-minded about this sort of thing.
And if you're asking yourself why JKR would have wanted to include homosexual characters, the answer is relatively simple. Voldemort is seen as Hitler. The Malfoys are the essence of the Aryan race- blonde hair, light-colored eyes, aristocratic. Mudbloods, muggles, half-bloods- all are terms that speak of people with 'bad blood', which was anyone Jewish or non-Aryan, in Hitler's mind. A lesser known fact is that Hitler also persecuted homosexuals. He found them to be right down there at the bottom of the barrel along with Jews and others races.
So, if JKR was writing this as a parallel, which it appears to me she is, then what types of people would the heroes be? Mudbloods, muggles, and half-bloods? Sure. Anyone not aristocratic and Aryan? Yes. Homosexuals? Makes sense. But you can't put an openly gay couple in a 'children's book', can you? So what does she do? She gives Harry a godfather who left his pureblood family, for unknown reasons, at age 16.
What age is sixteen? The age when a lot of guys start becoming sexually active? Correct. Is it possible Sirius was thrown out of the Black family because he was homosexual, and had come out to his family hoping for acceptance? Could be.
So Sirius is an ambiguous character, an ex-convict, who lives with a werewolf in Grimmauld Place. What better way to defile his relative's wishes for his pureblooded home than to use it as headquarters for the Order? Failing that, he could always invite his male lover there to stay with him. Sirius is just like that- wanting revenge, and being evil about getting it.
Werewolves are dark creatures, cast-offs of society. They would certainly be inappropriate in Hitler's world view. Think of the other members of the Order- Tonks (with her ever-changing hair color), Kingsley (who's black), and Moody (who's deformed). They also have poor pure-blooded people, b/c being poor was bad, and thieves. Obviously, the Order is a mis-matched collection of heroes. All of whom happen to share characteristics that Hitler hated.
Coincidence?
If you think so, then I don't know what else to say. If, however, you think there's an odd reoccurring theme here, like I myself do, then let me point out the following: if JKR has represented literally every other type of person that Hitler, and hence Voldemort, hates in the Order, why would she not put in a gay couple? Or, even better, a gay couple who's somehow related to the main hero of the story? This would gain our sympathy and respect for them, even if she never revealed what their sexual orientations were.
Also, why else would Voldemort target Sirius Black? He's a pureblood. He's aristocracy. He's the last survivor of an old bloodline, which seems to mean something to him. Would Voldemort be okay with his death? There's only so many pureblooded families to go around, you know. Eventually, you run out of them.
If Sirius was gay, then it makes more sense why he was ostracized to begin with, and why Voldemort targets him. True, he's a big target anyway b/c Harry cares for him. But, did he have to die? What's the difference between killing off the last survivor of the Blacks and a homosexual? Plenty, in Voldemort's mind.
Hopefully, this makes some sort of sense. I've thought about this a lot, and I've come to the conclusion that Sirius and Remus act like two people who were once in love, and have not yet reached the same level of intimacy they once shared. Whether due to Sirius' loss of memory, or to Remus' doubts and worries about re-starting a relationship, one can only guess.
Feel free to respond. If you have any thoughtful comments, please leave them. I'd love to have an intelligent discussion about this, not just a shouting match.
It does come down to personal preference with any SHIP, slashy or otherwise. I have a great friend who just can't see Ron/Hermione, although to me it's as clear as day.
It's all in interpretation of both text and subtext, people.
^.~*
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no subject
Date: 2005-03-15 05:03 pm (UTC)Also, I read through the last few pages of the aforementioned thread. Personally, I think it's hysterical.
*feels a bit like the Cheshire Cat talking to Alice*
That KILLED me. Thank you so much for saying that! When the person arguing you referred to you as Humpty Dumpty, I got so outraged. It's so frustrating to be arguing with someone who clearly is having difficulties arguing the broader, intellectual meaning, and therefore must resort to nitpicking tiny details and using them as a basis for rebuttal. All in all though, I thought it was a pretty good debate, considering the place where you were arguing! :o)